
Occasionally an event occurs which provides even a dim wit like me insights into the humanity of man verses the inhumanity of mankind. It enables spotting the leader from the flock; the pseudo wise guys from the genuine visionaries; and the merely eloquent from those whose words truly contribute towards fostering peace, harmony and justice amongst men – a heritage worthy of every child on our earth.
One such incident from the campaign of Barrack Hussain Obama incites this writing. It brought out in sharp relief the horror of the fate Muslims amidst them face daily at the hands of religious fundamentalists, secular thinkers, liberals intellectuals, as well neo-cons in the admittedly progressive nations of the west.
The actions of religious fundamentalists of any faith is understandable; no matter what their scriptures proclaim, this lot will always prefer to gorge out the eyes and the hearts of ‘unbelievers’. Even neo-cons every where reflect their true colors for if religion can be used to incite hate against an enemy so be it; God or no God! And so it is the actions of the liberals and the secular, who when they partake of Islamophobia gives rise to my greatest dismay.
That brings me back to the campaign, and the man who proved such an inspiration. He should be Obama – but is not. Obama never found the courage to defend his own preacher knowing fully well his preaching were not unpatriotic; but only the standard form of Afro-American rage against some ropes which continue to bind the blacks.
For that matter, he did not even muster up the courage to decry the attempts tagging him a Muslim, as the evil they were - acts of religion hatred unworthy of America. And despite the massive Muslim vote he got, I never saw a Hijab wearing women on the stage behind him – or even in front amongst the crowds waving to him!
Yet it says much for the goodness of Obama’s heart that after learning at one place his staff had asked two Hijab wearing ladies to move out of camera view, he picked up the phone to apologize. So I still retain my hopes in Obama, even as I understand that his voters will dictate his actions rather then the other way round.
Hence my inspiration must remain the man who jolted America out of its complacency - and restored the dignity and humanity of both America and American Muslims in one stroke? Recounting the sacrifice of a Muslim American soldier of Pakistani origin he gently rebuked those tagging Obama as Muslim: “...But the really right answer is, what if he is? Is there something wrong with being a Muslim in this country? The answer’s no, that’s not America”. Going even further he asked:” Is there something wrong with some seven-year-old Muslim-American kid believing that he or she could be president?”
I feel that by reconciling America with its conscience, General Powell’s words did much to stem the Bradley effect; a phenomena dreaded by one, and confidently expected by the other party. Yet what I wish to point out here is what his words did for America elsewhere.
We all know the Bradley effect elsewhere, and especially in Muslim countries, works to the disadvantage of the ‘ugly American’. Geo-political compulsions of America and the Muslims – and not the religious order of either - dictated the creation of the anti-Russian Jehadi. Brezhnev is on record saying he would do it again if he had to. Yet when after 9/11 those same compulsions dictated other wise, the inability of both sides to take religion out of the mission view of its fighters continues to fuel the fire.
This is why Powell’s words have such telling effect. They bravely confront, and show by example, how only statesmen and politicians can solve a problem which they themselves created. Continuing to blame religion ,or expecting the religious elites to do so will - and is - only adding fuel to the fire. It is men and moments like these which will reconcile the faiths of the world sooner then any Vatican or UN held inter-faith conference can. Fundamentalists and neo-cons of either side can no longer be a part of the solution- and need to be marginalized. Both sides need to be bring the Powells –the real liberals- of our world to center stage.
And so recollecting Obama’s statement about Powell being a part of his administration, I hope it occurs soon. Indeed men like him make it possible for me to think, is there something wrong with some seven-year-old Christian or even Hindu -Pakistani kid believing that he or she could some day be president of Pakistan?. Religious phobia is such insanity!
General Powell Sir, I salute you. You make the world a better place to live in.
I wish I could agree with you 100%.Though I agree with you about the fault in others;my friend if you honestly analyse yourself perhaps you will find you might be wise to blame ourselves also for some of the reaction.
Perhaps we are not all that devoted and pious as we like to think ourselves to be.
Just look at Iran,they fight for their rights -and Palestanian rights- as much as we do perhaps even more.And they are not helping USA kill one tenth the Taliban we are;and the world including the gestapo chief of our ally the United states of America says all terrorism all over the world has it’s origin in Pakistan.
i’ll appreciate if you let me know why?
Islam has never been a religion, nor has it been an ideology of peace, love and cooperation among fellow human beings. The ideology is one of supremacy, hate, lying, cheating, misleading, violence, maiming, murder and the false prophet's favorite, the child molestation of underage females to further his desire for numerous wives and property to control, abuse and humiliate.
Today's believers in Islam are the victims of the greatest fraud perpetrated on humanity since the fraud and deceit perpetrated by Hitler against his own people and countrymen prior to and during world war II and the atrocities perpetrated.
Although I would not go as far as to endorse what I see as being your overly provocative remarks, I DO agree with some of the questions it raises.
I am particularly worried about the fact that the Muslim world seems to see no reason to re-evaluate its positions. No questions are asked, the West is wrong. That’s it.
This lack of self-analysis and historical perspective, coupled with a categorical refusal to consider the West as anything else as the ”Enemy”, is bad news for us all, and it’s VERY bad news for those moderate Muslims who would like to see Muslim positions adapt to a changing world.
I am worried that Muslim thought is being hijacked and manipulated for ”Anti-Something” reasons, and that CAN NOT BE RIGHT!
Thank you
ALL media is biased, all over the world.
Are you trying to tell us that Western media are biased and that Muslim media are NOT???!!!!!!!!!!
When I read what I read in certain areas of this site, I wonder where the hell people in other parts of the world get it all from........!!!
THE WEST, BIG BAD BOGEYMAN, AGAINST NICE-AND-GENTLE-INNOCENT-AND-OBJECTIVE MIDDLE-AND-FAR-EASTERN-OPINION????
Wow!!
Didn’t know it was so clear-cut.
Thanks for the enlightenment.
2)I never said that media at my end is not biased either, but do you honestly think that Islam The Religion encouraged child molestation, abuse and humiliation??? I will be very much waiting for your response to that !!! :S:S:S
Sure.
Marrying off girls of twelve years old as a Muslim tradition is called pedophilia where I come from.
Moreover, Veena put up a very good post on this, about a 13 year-old girl who was, exceptionally, allowed to get a ”divorce”.
Religiously Legalised Pedophilia.
Disgusting.
Oh, and when I talked (wrote) about (sick sources) I also had some Arab and so-called Muslim ones in mind...Just like any other religion, Muslims don’t always represent the true Islam... That I thought is known for all...
There are no COUNTRIES, to my knowledge, which legalise pedophilia.
But there ARE countries which tolerate what you rightly call ”so-called-Muslim” practices.
This means that this is NOT a problem for countries, but for THE ISLAMIC FAITH, OR SOME INTERPRETATIONS OF IT!!!
As I asked in another comment here, when will the Muslim, or Islamic, world, start addressing issues instead of avoiding them by hiding behind semantic terms and definitions and words.
This is an issue that Islam should be dealing with, and it’s not the fault of ”countries”.
I’M waiting for am answer!!
And so are the children....
we can’t keep blaming people’s faith for individuals’ mistakes...It is just not fair... if Muslims are marrying 8 year-olds then this is ”pedophilia”, the same goes for anyone who belongs to any other religion, or non-religion...
This happened with Christianity. Now it’s just a haphazard mix of differing opinions.
Islam is going the same way, I’m (very sadly) afraid) to say.
There is no ”Islam” any more.
(If the word is supposed to mean a UNIFYING set of beliefs.....)
Peace...
Islam has continued this violent jihad to make Islam supreme throughout the globe.Please read my ”Global Islamic Jihad –A Strategic Asset Of The USA?” at http://saiye.instablogs.com/entry/the-new-great-game-part-2-global-islamic-jihad-a-strategic-asset-of-the-usa/;it will open your eyes to who created the Jihadis whom they later termed If after reading that you can come up with’informed’ comments I would welcome the discussion.If not consider this blog a complaint against people like you-and keep on with your mindless hatred.As you sow so shall you reap-we have less to lose then you;and in a war of hatred shall people also have the edge.remember Algeria,Vietnam,russian’s in Afghanistan....With USA in Afghanistan it has just started 10 years back;believe me it can go on another 100 years;and already every body and their aunts;including NATO commanders are saying there is no military solution to this!!!
Now I could write volumes on how Christianity is no religion at all and was manufactured by Rome ant the pagans;but I think I will not be as uncouth as that.It is always advisable to study something before you decide to criticise it.
I have studied Christianity more then you have-and of course Islam even more.And by all standards of moral and religious guidance Islam is far superior.
The proof is in the first 100 years of it,s existance islam raised the lowly scum unlettered Muslims to world power,and leaders in sciences as well-giving Europe a gem like Cardoba.
while Christianity within 100 years of the conversion of Constantine and it’s acceptance as the state religion of that great super power-laid the foundations of Europes darkest ages and the fall of Rome.....QED!
As for numerous wives read your Holy Bible all the great prophets of God had numerous wives...even father Abraham had two at the same time!
As far as greatest fraud is concerned i would refer to the biggest fraud your own scholars have discovered;please go to Jesus Myth site.Just google the words.Best of Luck in answering them.you need to defend Christianity there.
”ALL media is biased, all over the world”......what does that mean?You are unbiased?If you think that you need to re-asses yourself my friend.
If you don’t what is the point in bringing this sentence into play.At least you can make an effort to discuss the issues in an unbiased manner instead of making general statements.
”I am particularly worried about the fact that the Muslim world seems to see no reason to re-evaluate its positions”.It would be helpful if you could take up some issue which you feel we need to re-evaluate and we could discuss that thoroughly.... you would find my friend that you will stand by your prejudices.
”Marrying off girls of twelve years old as a Muslim tradition is called pedophilia where I come from”.
It’s not called that from where I come from ,and there are very good reasons and clear conditions defining a girl of marriageable age.
When you choose to ’rant’ against Muslims for pedophilia based on your definations;that’s no dialogue -it’s your prejudices.I hope you come to understand that at some stage of your life.
Wa’d is right ..he is being kind .She says ,” You are the victim of your biased media’.i am being more realistic-why blame the media;it only panders to the public taste-newspapers and magazines must sell?
So i feel a writer, one should say those things or in that manner which makes it relevant. By this i don’t mean an that it is a plagrized post.
As a concerned citizen and human being u r right in rising it, but wrong by not adding anything new.
Same type of comments will continue.. Muslim-bashing or Muslin-supporting. ..
Maybe you can invent the wheel,I can only re-invent it.That means all of us mostly present nothing new except our stle and angle to the issue concerned.
I shall go up and see what original matter you have come up with;and will be delighted if i see any.
if you could accept the point I gave here after registering I would have been delighted.But thanks for the comment;and you are welcome to your views.
There are very few Anti-Muslim articles on this site.
I hope that this site is not going to become a mouthpiece for propagandists. Because if it does, those propagandists shall have the pleasure of reading their articles amongst themselves and patting themselves on the back and saying how right they all are......and how wrong everyone else is.
Wonderful perspective in view.
”I am becoming worried about the increasing number of virulent Anti-Western articles and comments on Instablogs”.your phobias are getting at you!!!
I see no anti-western articles here-only Muslims defending themselves from the world wide phobia against them by misguided portions of humanity.And of course you have the right to reply don’t you.So what exactly is your crib...are you against freedom of speech for the Muslim view point?I hope not;but your comment here gives that impression.How ironic that when your people slander even our respected personalities -even the holy prophet of islam -we are asked not to worry;it is freedom of speech;but if we write even logically against western wrongs it’s is worrying for you.
I feel genuinely sorry for progressist and young, modern, Muslim/Islamic thought and people.
They have no guidance, no common ideals, no common philosophy, no common aims in this world.
But they DO have, unfortunately, more than their fair shair of manipulators and profiteers.
But that’s just human, after all.....
’In other words, and to sum up my point of view, the ”Muslim” or ”Islamic” world seems to have no idea of where it’s going or what its ”fundamental” values are’.
What a brazenly uncaring and unsupported statement.How many ’progressist and young, modern, Muslim/Islamic thought and people’ you know?
I know thousands...and believe me they understand Islam better then even people of my generation do....And I am at the age where I could be kicking the bucket any day.
That’s because they have had better contact with the west and it,s media.And they have found what the Holy Quran tells them is 100% true;and relevant to pious,honest and moral living.
But why ask modern Muslims;ask people like Cat Stevens and the famous British women Journalist Yvonne Ridley who are modern British people who have had a western education all their lives and also had much closer contact with Islam.Just google up their sites using their names.
Thanks for commenting my comments.
Just a couple of clarifications. No, I am not biased. Bias, the meaning of which you don’t seem to fully undesrtand, is criticism founded on the deliberate abuse of fact, a deliberate attempt to mislead or manipulate. I think you meant to say that you don’t agree with my comments. That’s fair enough but I am only expressing opinions, not trying to denigrate anyone or anything with a wish to do harm. So, no, I am NOT biased. On the contrary my comments show my compassion for the Muslim world, but not for abuse committed in its name. I stand by that. If that is “ranting” and “prejudiced”, as you so inelegantly (and surprisingly, coming from you, oh well...) put it, I am guilty.
Re ‘Articles’, I didn’t say “Anti-Western”, I said “VIRULENT Anti-Western”. If you don’t know the difference, look up virulent. Of course people are entitled to their point of view.
‘Pedophilia’. Pleased to see you’re against it, Hassan, but this subject, like terrorism, violence, Jihad, and other subjects, are defined differently depending on which Muslim you are speaking too. Moreover, different opinions are both, somehow, justified by the Coran. A global “Islamic” standpoint does not exist.
I stand by my opinion that Islam seems to have (temporarily I hope) lost it’s bearings and does not want to confront things.
Your own contentions are a demonstration of this. You claim that “Islam is far superior”, your theories concerning the Jihad America created, (I suppose 9/11 was Bush too? Just like US college students.) allow you to conveniently understate the role played by Muslims, your general point of view, that the US and the West are more to blame than the others, etc, show that even you seem to have a useful scapegoat which allows you to avoid asking painful questions concerning the direction of Islam. And who suffers? Muslims, unfortunately.
Which was the central point of my comments, one which you choose to ignore. I sincerely think that Muslims are being done a disservice by other Muslims, and that’s my opinion. Period.
Where have I said that you are biased? I don’t see I have said that at all?If I have please point it out and I will apologize.Even W’ad did not call you biased,she only pointed out:”And you sir, are the victim of your biased media,, you might want to look for the TRUTH and think for your own for a change”...and even her comment was not directed at you but at Sedat.
Oh but you did get in the line of this exchange when you commented:”ALL media is biased, all over the world”.....that is when I pointed out that giving this particular statement is irrelevant; as if anything it seems to say that instead of thinking for yourself -on this issue at least- you would prefer to go along with the biased press...and therefore does give the impression that you are biased.And so yes as you yourself seem to realize I don’t agree with the need for stating here:”ALL media is biased, all over the world”
How ever absolutely justifiably you have berated me for using the words “ranting” and “prejudiced”where you feel i could have used better ones.So I apologise.But honestly what other words could I use when I see coming from you statements like:
1.”No questions are asked, the West is wrong. That’s it”.How do you reach this conclusion?Have you honestly even studied the list of questions that have been asked and been answered with nothing but force or arrogance,or a smug satisfaction that the west is right?
2.This lack of self-analysis and historical perspective, coupled with a categorical refusal to consider the West as anything else as the ”Enemy”, is bad news for us all?.... Again how do you reach the conclusion that the west is perceived as an enemy based on a lack of a historical perspective or analysis?
3.”In other words, and to sum up my point of view, the ”Muslim” or ”Islamic” world seems to have no idea of where it’s going or what its ”fundamental” values are”.....I have already given my reasons for why I think this is an unsupported and unsubstantiated opinion based on prejudice picked up from your press and environments -and not any objective study or dialogue carried out by you.
Now Michael to my way of looking at things such categorical opinions as the above ones on importance issues requiring immense depth of knowledbge of the subject matter ,when unsupported by facts based on individual research is a bias ,prejudice or rant.I may be wrong for in english it being your language you should be able to define it better.
best wishes
seeya
I choose to divide my reply to your above comment in two.The first dealt with the clarifications.This one will deal with your accusations.You contend that I have lost my bearings because:
1.”You claim that “Islam is far superior”.Firstly Michael I hope you can understand why I am so disappointed by even the logic of such a statement from you.I can indeed accuse you of having lost your bearings if you thought that Christianity or or Hinduism or Islam was superior to spiritualism and yet continued being just a spiritual person.Only if you are convinced that spirituality is superior would you continue to uphold it vs belief in God .No?What grounds then would I have to claim you to have lost your bearings just because you state spiritualism is superior to Islam? Thus I am a Muslim only because I am convinced Islam is superior,and you are being illogical if you feel justified in using this statement of mine only to paint me ’as having lost my bearings’
Ofcourse there is always an ethical point of view in every dialogue;And I must be more careful of the feelings of others;but not when the comment is about re-acting to some thing like this :”Today’s believers in Islam are the victims of the greatest fraud perpetrated on humanity since the fraud and deceit perpetrated by Hitler against his own people and countrymen prior to and during world war II and the atrocities perpetrated”.
And I hope you will notice while this guy was ’ranting ’ his opinion unsupported by any logic ,I at least gave a reason for every thing I wrote.
2.”Your theories concerning the Jihad America created allow you to conveniently understate the role played by Muslims”.I must say you need to re-read the article.I have given the role of every one including Saudi Arabia,France,Egypt,Iran,Pakistan,China in all the necessary details;and even shown that the USA came in comparatively late -yet it was only the USA which forged all these in one as a global instrument of Islamic Jehad for the attainment of it’s own strategic interests.Till now no one has proved any statement or fact I gave there as wrong.So what exactly is the complaint?
3.”your general point of view, that the US and the West are more to blame than the others, etc, show that even you seem to have a useful scapegoat which allows you to avoid asking painful questions concerning the direction of Islam”.This observation would have been justified if I had addressed the issue of the direction of Islam or Islamic Jehad in Afghanistan at all.Since I have stated at the end of the second part of my article that more parts are to come;at the very least I would say this accusation is rather premature.
A BIG AMEN to this little gem of good-old-fashioned-common-sense.
Perfectly put.
Nothing that Michael could ever write would be offensive to me.A man must have a good heart(and mind) and the will to use it well,and he can find his way out of the deepest filth;and I think Michael has both.
But I do feel he is rather too found of giving categorical opinions,ending with...period.Even that I am willing to listen provided they are supported by facts based on knowledge;and where not I expect he would be willing to learn.
What bugs me is his ’apparent’ absolute hostility to even see Islamic view points -and engage them in a constructive dialogue - on instablogs.This is what I initially objected to in my comment.
I use the word ’apparent’ advisedly because I know he cannot help this.He is trying but it will take him a long time to break out of the mould the western press and upbringing has given him.
Namely that the west has all the answers and for our own good we need to pick these up as soon as possible.The earlier the better.
In time I hope to be able to carry on a more meaningful dialogue with him.mean while i enjoy his writings and comments.
Very interesting comment, thanks.
You are right. I speak categorically sometimes.
And it’s deliberate.
But you need to understand something else as well if you don’t mind my saying so.
The reason that I do that is that I have profound convictions, and I defend them. That does not mean that I do not dialogue however.
But.
Another reason I do that is that I also have the impression (and yes, it’s a generalisation, and we all have them) that writers from the Indian sub-continent sometimes confuse semantics and argument. I mean this in linguistic, and not cultural, terms. I have the feeling that things can get personal very quickly and insult takes the place of committed comment. I could quote so many examples, including one I answered only today in an answer to a comment you put up on one of my posts.
(I am curing myself of that virus, which I caught when I first got on this site. I shall stop rising to the bait, coz NO-ONE can be as BAD as me when he gats angry LOL!!)
And there is even a good example of it in the comment I am answering.
”(Michael’s”) ’apparent’ absolute hostility to even see Islamic view points”
Do you honestly believe that I harbour ”an absolute hostility to(wards) even (seeing) Islamic viewpoints”
That, Hassan, is arroneous and you know it.
If you mean I don’t always agree with you then you’re right.
But if you think I’m being systematically anti-muslim in my approach, that would seem to indicate that you do not like to be contradicted and get aggressive when it happens.
I answered you (rather aggressive) comments on this (your) article with what I think was a little politeness. I don’t want to use Anil to defend me, but he DID say that my comments were not offensive.
”(Michael) needs to break out of the mould the western press and upbringing has given him. Namely that the west has all the answers and for our own good we need to pick these up as soon as possible.The earlier the better.”
I think anyone can see that for what it is, Hassan. Condescending and pompous self-righteousness.
”(Michael) would be willing to learn.”
I don’t need a teacher Hassan. Who do you think you are?
Finally,
”Where have I said that you are biased?” you ask?
Sorry Hassan, but you should read your OWN comments. May I cut and stick this, written by YOU, higher up on this page?
Because you said it ON THIS POST!
”At least you can make an effort to discuss the issues in an unbiased manner instead of making general statements.”
You said you would apologise, because
(and I quote you again, you said ”If I have (said Michael was biased) please point it out and I will apologize”).
I would appreciate your apologies.
Thank you.
An apology never demeans anybody;nor can it do any harm -in fact it can only serve to do away with any ill feelings.Since you asked for an apology; I apologies a thousand time with the request to please forgive the (unwitting) pain I may have caused you.
Now with that said if you re-read what you cut pasted you may perhaps see that I did not call you biased;I only requested you to make an effort to ”discuss the issues in an unbiased manner instead of making general statements.” So if anything I accused you of making general statements.Ok you could stretch it to mean biased.So once again sorry.Now brief comments on some of your statements:
”The reason that I do that is that I have profound convictions, and I defend them”.Exactly!But don’t you see ’profound convictions’ is the problem with everybody-even fundamentalists.Not that you must not have them;but when one starts flouting them they close the door to a healthy dialogue as they are the opposite of an open mind.
”writers from the Indian sub-continent sometimes confuse semantics and argument. I mean this in linguistic, and not cultural, terms. I have the feeling that things can get personal very quickly and insult takes the place of committed comment”. I agree Michael, you can not be too careful about this.This is always a problem with written messages/comments over the internet even amongst English speaking peoples;and when communicating with us non-English speaking ones it can get worse.That is one reason why I wrote ’apparent’ and then clarified why.Else I am sure I would have caused offense.
”I don’t need a teacher Hassan. Who do you think you are”? What a great tragedy Michael.Every one of us here on earth is a learner; and every thing on it,every second of life and every person we come across is a teacher.I am a learner as well as a teacher -and so are you.Without this understanding every dialogue is a monologue;and every action of ours wasted.
I did not ASK for an apology, as you say, you OFFERED it should it be necessary.
And if you think I ”stretched” (which means ”exaggerated” or ”distorted”) your words to make them mean that you said I was being biased, then your ”apology” is not one.
There is nothing more inelegant, uncultured, ungraceful and oafish than a grudging and reluctant apology.
It is also extremely condescending.
As for teaching and learning (@ Oscar too), I do not come to current affairs debates to be taught. I come to be informed.
Of course I accept teaching. Does someone honestly think otherwise? It’s an essential part of who I am. But not in these spheres.
There is an enormous difference between ”teaching” and ”being informed”.
So, I think Hassan, that someone should ”teach” or ”inform” you that a half-given apology is no apology at all.
I’ve answered what I care to answer, so have a good day.....
I am surprised that an apology could be the cause of such acrimony.I am sure you are disturbed by something.I don’t believe you to be such an evil tempered man.
I apologized a thousand times,then I explained why I thought you had misunderstood me;and finally just in case that be unacceptable I apologized once again.This was no half given apology.
And you term that:There is nothing more inelegant, uncultured, ungraceful and oafish than a grudging and reluctant apology.It is also extremely condescending.
I am sorry you thought it that.
But as you have so clearly stated so often you have your opinions and I have mine ;and this is a debate . So i guess we each have a right to stick to our guns.
There is an enormous difference between ”teaching” and ”being informed”.
There is???
Hassan,
This is one of the truest statements I have ever come across on IB.
To make myself clear... This statement is a a goal we should all strive to not only remeber, but LEARN it, Live it, and LOVE it.
Hi Oscar,
I too think that’s very true, (and very well expressed moreover)
I also know that that’s all you wanted to comment, because, knowing you, if you’d wanted to comment anything else you would have done so.
My comment wasn’t addressed to you, it was just for your information.
What I wanted to say is that if you play the piano, you can teach me it. If you can play chess you can teach me that too. If you a respected religious man, you can teach me what you know.
But no-one can ”teach” opinions, and that means I don’t consider that I have to ”lean”. I am not in college.
No-one can ”teach” Muslim viewpoints to me, or the Mumbai tragedy either. What people think of it all is opinion, not fact. They can explain it, say what the think they know and I will be pleased to take it onboard and accept what I want and leave out the rest.
The principle of ”Teaching and ”Learning”, is that those who teach do not expect eccessive contradiction. Normal.
Normal because those who ”learn” accept (most of) what they are taught. It’s what happens in school and university. That’s what they GO there for. To learn. To be taught.
I said I do not consider that I need to adopt a learning posture with those who discuss world events who think they can ”teach” me. No, I do not want a teacher. Not at all.
God knows there are enough ”lesson givers” (”teachers” right? that’s the definition - those who dispense lessons) out there as it is!!!!.
No-one can ”teach” anyone their points of view, opinions, interpretations.
I thought that would be obvious to anyone who knows the difference between teaching and giving opinion and exchanging information.
Is it so difficult to see the difference?
I’d be very surprised if you found that difficult my friend.
Seeya!!
You know me well.. I like the expression and that’s what I commented, plain and simple.. No pro, no con..No obscure random thoughts.
I understand very well the difference between learning and accepting one’s opinion... I can learn from a teacher, from books, from physical, proven statisticss.. I didn’t come to IB for that. I came to hear the ”two sides” that wrap around the statistics.. The human feeling, raw emotion, and ”personal truths” one can offer me.. Of course by hearing these ”truths”, my personal opion may be changed...But in the end, they are opionions....which as you said cannot be taught, only stated:
From there each has a choice to accept, deny, or a little of both.. That’s looking for ones ”personal truths.”
I am a teacher.. I teach facts..but as a good teach I also teach NOT to base ones opinion of textbook facts alone. I teach ”how to think, and how to search.”
I didn’t think we’d have a problem understanding one another, but just wanted to state my side just in case the slaying was to begin :)
No worries. In fact the Dragon Slayer is lying asleep in his lair right now, he has never been to this page, not once, and nothing was further from his mind, (if I may speak for him........)
Hey, I talked about learning etc with a teacher friend earlier. He sent me this.
I found it VERY interesting, and I’m sure Hassan will appreciate it too.....
”The opposite of a correct statement is a false statement. But the opposite of a profound truth may well be another profound truth”
Cool stuff.......
Our truths run back to our personal searching, what we choose to seek,How far and deep we choose to indelve ourselves into it, and how we percieve what we find.
This world isn’t about right or wrong or black or white..If it were, life would be easy and harmonious.. We live according to each’s perception..Those are our truths..
We can both agree what we are seeing is a color, but while you may see green, I may see blue, or red.. Who’s wrong?
I should know, I just happen to be blue/ green colourblind for borderline colours!!!!! LOL
Thank you for the sincere appreciation;this is a lesson I learn’t very late in life.It may yet prove very useful to me!
I don’t know about Islam, I’m trying to become informed: that’s why I only read the post and didn’t comment on it’s content or numerous comments.
The part of Hassan’s comment that I did quote caught my eye..and that is why I commented on that small part of his comment.
It has NOTHING to do with either of your or your comments.
”What I wanted to say is that if you play the piano, you can teach me it. If you can play chess you can teach me that too. If you a respected religious man, you can teach me what you know”... I suggest to ponder the well known wisdom quote”A wise man can learn even from fools”.More over I think I am a fool for I cannot see what to appreciate in the statement ””The opposite of a correct statement is a false statement. But the opposite of a profound truth may well be another profound truth”.Michael you will have to explain it to me .For the opposite of truth is falsehood;and though there can be a profound truth I cannot see how there can be a profound falsehood.That would be a contradiction in terms and something only a priest could cook up.
It is also apparent that your concept of a teacher and learner differs significantly from my concept of a teacher and learner.You can only learn from a specialist;I can learn from anybody and any experience-and in fact do.In your concept of a teacher and a learner may never question the teacher.In my concept he may- and must-if only to learn more.
You believe learning and teaching is formal and is done in school,college or university only?I think there is far more learning done in the streets and homes every day.
And that is why I can see now you react so personally when I ask you to learn.I can see now that you come to the forum to give opinions;and listen to other peoples opinions.Michael I sincerely want people to debate what I write.That is why I go in such detail.I come to the forum to pass on my knowledge-and learn from the knowledge and experience of others.I believe just exchanging opinions is of little use.
Is this a difference of perceptions or just a difference of the words we are using to describe what we want from the forum.
Hassan, I cannot explain that if you cannot see it for yourself.
I am not a teacher, and I do not want to be one in this context.
But all of that is of no importance, for we shall talk of other things...in other contexts.
I wish you an excellent evening....
Exceptionally well stated :I understand very well the difference between learning and accepting one’s opinion... I can learn from a teacher, from books, from physical, proven statisticss.. I didn’t come to IB for that. I came to hear the ”two sides” that wrap around the statistics.. The human feeling, raw emotion, and ”personal truths” one can offer me.. Of course by hearing these ”truths”, my personal opion may be changed...But in the end, they are opionions....which as you said cannot be taught, only stated:
From there each has a choice to accept, deny, or a little of both.. That’s looking for ones ”personal truths.”
I am a teacher.. I teach facts..but as a good teach I also teach NOT to base ones opinion of textbook facts alone. I teach ”how to think, and how to search.”
I would sum it up as follows. ’We come here for a dialogue.An opinionated dialogue teaches nothing and leads to personal acrimony.While an open and receptive dialogue leads to great learning.
I agree with everything you have summed up for me, but may I add: Opinions are very neccessary...I personally, have not commented on the Islamic aspect of this post, because of my ignorance concerning the subject...but I WANT to learn, I want to form my own personal truth about Islam, therefore I must be made available these opinions which are stated..They are MOST important in my search for knowledge and truths...
Opinionated dialogue and open and receptive dialogues, in my belief, not only CAN, but MUST, walk hand in hand.
My friend all I will say is you must be a very patient man;certainly more patient then me.I love dialogue but only where it is carried out with a desire to gain or impart something.Perhaps it’s the age ;but where I am at now just exchanging opinions has lost all charm for me.
I now consider them only a useful form for exchange of pleasantries - and sometimes not even that.Though I agree one learns or gains something even from an exchange of opinions.
You’re giving me too much credit. I prefer to think I have become a bit more ”seasoned” with age. I was raised by a politician father, I can b.s. debate my way around with the best of them...but why?
I have learned to take pride in my ”personal truths”.. I didn’t come by them easy. I searched, did my homework, and searched some more before coming to my opinion.
When you work for something, you feel for it, believe, and take pride in those opinions. They are MINE..I am willing to share them: but I have no reason to force them upon anybody. The worse type of blindless in this world is the type when one chooses NOT to see. I can NOT change or save the world: but I WILL lend my hand and imparcial ear to anyone who needs or requests it.
I personally, don’t mind heated debates: I DO MIND heated dialogues which have NO TRUTHS, no passion, no personal reflection or solutions..Those are not debates nor dialogues..they are simply memorized words that have been saved to spew forward..I find that type of action very common in various U.S. news blogs concerning my country and my people...
Do I get angry..of course, but I will not lower myself to a duel with a man who’s only weapon is ignorance and or stupidity.
I’ve had my share of fighting.. physically and verbally, I am not sure of your age, but you make reference to the fact that maybe you just haven’t gotten ”there” yet..
The thing about ”fighting” is not ”knowing how” to fight, but knowing when and why and with whom to fight.
Thanks for such a detailed rely.
No I meant I am too old to enjoy listening to or exchanging opinions only-though even this I enjoyed at a it certain age.And yes I am almost 25 years -I think - older then you.
I agree with you 100 % about cherishing the opinions you have formed through your hard experience- and 101% about sharing but not forcing them on others.
But I enjoy exchanging and discussing my opinions with those who wish to do the same - only I prefer it to be in the form of dialogue rather then a debate; because personally I tend to look on a debate as something in which one is fixed to his side of the motion(opinion) and a ’civilized dialogue’ as something in which one is open to the out come - even to the extant that the other person may be right.
”they are simply memorized words that have been saved to spew forward..I find that type of action very common in various U.S. news blogs concerning my country and my people...”.So true ,and this is an arrogance which the US has spread to every place and people it’s culture or media has influenced....
And this really is what I term being opinionated;being so sure that you are right you are just not willing to even entertain the logic of the other -nor willing to give reasons in support of your own.
”The thing about ”fighting” is not ”knowing how” to fight, but knowing when and why and with whom to fight”.
A great deal of wisdom here ,and perfectly put.
Thank you.And I shall continue to value your opinions.
Local Opinions (23)
I wish I could agree with you 100%.Though I agree with you about the fault in others;my friend if you honestly analyse yourself perhaps you will find you might be wise to blame ourselves also for some of the reaction.
Perhaps we are not all that devoted and pious as we like to think ourselves to be.
Just look at Iran,they fight for their rights -and Palestanian rights- as much as we do perhaps even more.And they are not helping USA kill one tenth the Taliban we are;and the world including the gestapo chief of our ally the United states of America says all terrorism all over the world has it’s origin in Pakistan.
i’ll appreciate if you let me know why?
Islam has continued this violent jihad to make Islam supreme throughout the globe.Please read my ”Global Islamic Jihad –A Strategic Asset Of The USA?” at http://saiye.instablogs.com/entry/the-new-great-game-part-2-global-islamic-jihad-a-strategic-asset-of-the-usa/;it will open your eyes to who created the Jihadis whom they later termed If after reading that you can come up with’informed’ comments I would welcome the discussion.If not consider this blog a complaint against people like you-and keep on with your mindless hatred.As you sow so shall you reap-we have less to lose then you;and in a war of hatred shall people also have the edge.remember Algeria,Vietnam,russian’s in Afghanistan....With USA in Afghanistan it has just started 10 years back;believe me it can go on another 100 years;and already every body and their aunts;including NATO commanders are saying there is no military solution to this!!!
Now I could write volumes on how Christianity is no religion at all and was manufactured by Rome ant the pagans;but I think I will not be as uncouth as that.It is always advisable to study something before you decide to criticise it.
I have studied Christianity more then you have-and of course Islam even more.And by all standards of moral and religious guidance Islam is far superior.
The proof is in the first 100 years of it,s existance islam raised the lowly scum unlettered Muslims to world power,and leaders in sciences as well-giving Europe a gem like Cardoba.
while Christianity within 100 years of the conversion of Constantine and it’s acceptance as the state religion of that great super power-laid the foundations of Europes darkest ages and the fall of Rome.....QED!
As for numerous wives read your Holy Bible all the great prophets of God had numerous wives...even father Abraham had two at the same time!
As far as greatest fraud is concerned i would refer to the biggest fraud your own scholars have discovered;please go to Jesus Myth site.Just google the words.Best of Luck in answering them.you need to defend Christianity there.
Maybe you can invent the wheel,I can only re-invent it.That means all of us mostly present nothing new except our stle and angle to the issue concerned.
I shall go up and see what original matter you have come up with;and will be delighted if i see any.
if you could accept the point I gave here after registering I would have been delighted.But thanks for the comment;and you are welcome to your views.
”ALL media is biased, all over the world”......what does that mean?You are unbiased?If you think that you need to re-asses yourself my friend.
If you don’t what is the point in bringing this sentence into play.At least you can make an effort to discuss the issues in an unbiased manner instead of making general statements.
”I am particularly worried about the fact that the Muslim world seems to see no reason to re-evaluate its positions”.It would be helpful if you could take up some issue which you feel we need to re-evaluate and we could discuss that thoroughly.... you would find my friend that you will stand by your prejudices.
”I am becoming worried about the increasing number of virulent Anti-Western articles and comments on Instablogs”.your phobias are getting at you!!!
I see no anti-western articles here-only Muslims defending themselves from the world wide phobia against them by misguided portions of humanity.And of course you have the right to reply don’t you.So what exactly is your crib...are you against freedom of speech for the Muslim view point?I hope not;but your comment here gives that impression.How ironic that when your people slander even our respected personalities -even the holy prophet of islam -we are asked not to worry;it is freedom of speech;but if we write even logically against western wrongs it’s is worrying for you.
’In other words, and to sum up my point of view, the ”Muslim” or ”Islamic” world seems to have no idea of where it’s going or what its ”fundamental” values are’.
What a brazenly uncaring and unsupported statement.How many ’progressist and young, modern, Muslim/Islamic thought and people’ you know?
I know thousands...and believe me they understand Islam better then even people of my generation do....And I am at the age where I could be kicking the bucket any day.
That’s because they have had better contact with the west and it,s media.And they have found what the Holy Quran tells them is 100% true;and relevant to pious,honest and moral living.
But why ask modern Muslims;ask people like Cat Stevens and the famous British women Journalist Yvonne Ridley who are modern British people who have had a western education all their lives and also had much closer contact with Islam.Just google up their sites using their names.
”Marrying off girls of twelve years old as a Muslim tradition is called pedophilia where I come from”.
It’s not called that from where I come from ,and there are very good reasons and clear conditions defining a girl of marriageable age.
When you choose to ’rant’ against Muslims for pedophilia based on your definations;that’s no dialogue -it’s your prejudices.I hope you come to understand that at some stage of your life.
Wa’d is right ..he is being kind .She says ,” You are the victim of your biased media’.i am being more realistic-why blame the media;it only panders to the public taste-newspapers and magazines must sell?
Where have I said that you are biased? I don’t see I have said that at all?If I have please point it out and I will apologize.Even W’ad did not call you biased,she only pointed out:”And you sir, are the victim of your biased media,, you might want to look for the TRUTH and think for your own for a change”...and even her comment was not directed at you but at Sedat.
Oh but you did get in the line of this exchange when you commented:”ALL media is biased, all over the world”.....that is when I pointed out that giving this particular statement is irrelevant; as if anything it seems to say that instead of thinking for yourself -on this issue at least- you would prefer to go along with the biased press...and therefore does give the impression that you are biased.And so yes as you yourself seem to realize I don’t agree with the need for stating here:”ALL media is biased, all over the world”
How ever absolutely justifiably you have berated me for using the words “ranting” and “prejudiced”where you feel i could have used better ones.So I apologise.But honestly what other words could I use when I see coming from you statements like:
1.”No questions are asked, the West is wrong. That’s it”.How do you reach this conclusion?Have you honestly even studied the list of questions that have been asked and been answered with nothing but force or arrogance,or a smug satisfaction that the west is right?
2.This lack of self-analysis and historical perspective, coupled with a categorical refusal to consider the West as anything else as the ”Enemy”, is bad news for us all?.... Again how do you reach the conclusion that the west is perceived as an enemy based on a lack of a historical perspective or analysis?
3.”In other words, and to sum up my point of view, the ”Muslim” or ”Islamic” world seems to have no idea of where it’s going or what its ”fundamental” values are”.....I have already given my reasons for why I think this is an unsupported and unsubstantiated opinion based on prejudice picked up from your press and environments -and not any objective study or dialogue carried out by you.
Now Michael to my way of looking at things such categorical opinions as the above ones on importance issues requiring immense depth of knowledbge of the subject matter ,when unsupported by facts based on individual research is a bias ,prejudice or rant.I may be wrong for in english it being your language you should be able to define it better.
best wishes
seeya
Nothing that Michael could ever write would be offensive to me.A man must have a good heart(and mind) and the will to use it well,and he can find his way out of the deepest filth;and I think Michael has both.
But I do feel he is rather too found of giving categorical opinions,ending with...period.Even that I am willing to listen provided they are supported by facts based on knowledge;and where not I expect he would be willing to learn.
What bugs me is his ’apparent’ absolute hostility to even see Islamic view points -and engage them in a constructive dialogue - on instablogs.This is what I initially objected to in my comment.
I use the word ’apparent’ advisedly because I know he cannot help this.He is trying but it will take him a long time to break out of the mould the western press and upbringing has given him.
Namely that the west has all the answers and for our own good we need to pick these up as soon as possible.The earlier the better.
In time I hope to be able to carry on a more meaningful dialogue with him.mean while i enjoy his writings and comments.
I choose to divide my reply to your above comment in two.The first dealt with the clarifications.This one will deal with your accusations.You contend that I have lost my bearings because:
1.”You claim that “Islam is far superior”.Firstly Michael I hope you can understand why I am so disappointed by even the logic of such a statement from you.I can indeed accuse you of having lost your bearings if you thought that Christianity or or Hinduism or Islam was superior to spiritualism and yet continued being just a spiritual person.Only if you are convinced that spirituality is superior would you continue to uphold it vs belief in God .No?What grounds then would I have to claim you to have lost your bearings just because you state spiritualism is superior to Islam? Thus I am a Muslim only because I am convinced Islam is superior,and you are being illogical if you feel justified in using this statement of mine only to paint me ’as having lost my bearings’
Ofcourse there is always an ethical point of view in every dialogue;And I must be more careful of the feelings of others;but not when the comment is about re-acting to some thing like this :”Today’s believers in Islam are the victims of the greatest fraud perpetrated on humanity since the fraud and deceit perpetrated by Hitler against his own people and countrymen prior to and during world war II and the atrocities perpetrated”.
And I hope you will notice while this guy was ’ranting ’ his opinion unsupported by any logic ,I at least gave a reason for every thing I wrote.
2.”Your theories concerning the Jihad America created allow you to conveniently understate the role played by Muslims”.I must say you need to re-read the article.I have given the role of every one including Saudi Arabia,France,Egypt,Iran,Pakistan,China in all the necessary details;and even shown that the USA came in comparatively late -yet it was only the USA which forged all these in one as a global instrument of Islamic Jehad for the attainment of it’s own strategic interests.Till now no one has proved any statement or fact I gave there as wrong.So what exactly is the complaint?
3.”your general point of view, that the US and the West are more to blame than the others, etc, show that even you seem to have a useful scapegoat which allows you to avoid asking painful questions concerning the direction of Islam”.This observation would have been justified if I had addressed the issue of the direction of Islam or Islamic Jehad in Afghanistan at all.Since I have stated at the end of the second part of my article that more parts are to come;at the very least I would say this accusation is rather premature.
An apology never demeans anybody;nor can it do any harm -in fact it can only serve to do away with any ill feelings.Since you asked for an apology; I apologies a thousand time with the request to please forgive the (unwitting) pain I may have caused you.
Now with that said if you re-read what you cut pasted you may perhaps see that I did not call you biased;I only requested you to make an effort to ”discuss the issues in an unbiased manner instead of making general statements.” So if anything I accused you of making general statements.Ok you could stretch it to mean biased.So once again sorry.Now brief comments on some of your statements:
”The reason that I do that is that I have profound convictions, and I defend them”.Exactly!But don’t you see ’profound convictions’ is the problem with everybody-even fundamentalists.Not that you must not have them;but when one starts flouting them they close the door to a healthy dialogue as they are the opposite of an open mind.
”writers from the Indian sub-continent sometimes confuse semantics and argument. I mean this in linguistic, and not cultural, terms. I have the feeling that things can get personal very quickly and insult takes the place of committed comment”. I agree Michael, you can not be too careful about this.This is always a problem with written messages/comments over the internet even amongst English speaking peoples;and when communicating with us non-English speaking ones it can get worse.That is one reason why I wrote ’apparent’ and then clarified why.Else I am sure I would have caused offense.
”I don’t need a teacher Hassan. Who do you think you are”? What a great tragedy Michael.Every one of us here on earth is a learner; and every thing on it,every second of life and every person we come across is a teacher.I am a learner as well as a teacher -and so are you.Without this understanding every dialogue is a monologue;and every action of ours wasted.
Thank you for the sincere appreciation;this is a lesson I learn’t very late in life.It may yet prove very useful to me!
”What I wanted to say is that if you play the piano, you can teach me it. If you can play chess you can teach me that too. If you a respected religious man, you can teach me what you know”... I suggest to ponder the well known wisdom quote”A wise man can learn even from fools”.More over I think I am a fool for I cannot see what to appreciate in the statement ””The opposite of a correct statement is a false statement. But the opposite of a profound truth may well be another profound truth”.Michael you will have to explain it to me .For the opposite of truth is falsehood;and though there can be a profound truth I cannot see how there can be a profound falsehood.That would be a contradiction in terms and something only a priest could cook up.
It is also apparent that your concept of a teacher and learner differs significantly from my concept of a teacher and learner.You can only learn from a specialist;I can learn from anybody and any experience-and in fact do.In your concept of a teacher and a learner may never question the teacher.In my concept he may- and must-if only to learn more.
You believe learning and teaching is formal and is done in school,college or university only?I think there is far more learning done in the streets and homes every day.
And that is why I can see now you react so personally when I ask you to learn.I can see now that you come to the forum to give opinions;and listen to other peoples opinions.Michael I sincerely want people to debate what I write.That is why I go in such detail.I come to the forum to pass on my knowledge-and learn from the knowledge and experience of others.I believe just exchanging opinions is of little use.
Is this a difference of perceptions or just a difference of the words we are using to describe what we want from the forum.
Exceptionally well stated :I understand very well the difference between learning and accepting one’s opinion... I can learn from a teacher, from books, from physical, proven statisticss.. I didn’t come to IB for that. I came to hear the ”two sides” that wrap around the statistics.. The human feeling, raw emotion, and ”personal truths” one can offer me.. Of course by hearing these ”truths”, my personal opion may be changed...But in the end, they are opionions....which as you said cannot be taught, only stated:
From there each has a choice to accept, deny, or a little of both.. That’s looking for ones ”personal truths.”
I am a teacher.. I teach facts..but as a good teach I also teach NOT to base ones opinion of textbook facts alone. I teach ”how to think, and how to search.”
I would sum it up as follows. ’We come here for a dialogue.An opinionated dialogue teaches nothing and leads to personal acrimony.While an open and receptive dialogue leads to great learning.
I am surprised that an apology could be the cause of such acrimony.I am sure you are disturbed by something.I don’t believe you to be such an evil tempered man.
I apologized a thousand times,then I explained why I thought you had misunderstood me;and finally just in case that be unacceptable I apologized once again.This was no half given apology.
And you term that:There is nothing more inelegant, uncultured, ungraceful and oafish than a grudging and reluctant apology.It is also extremely condescending.
I am sorry you thought it that.
But as you have so clearly stated so often you have your opinions and I have mine ;and this is a debate . So i guess we each have a right to stick to our guns.
There is an enormous difference between ”teaching” and ”being informed”.
There is???
Thank you.And I shall continue to value your opinions.
My friend all I will say is you must be a very patient man;certainly more patient then me.I love dialogue but only where it is carried out with a desire to gain or impart something.Perhaps it’s the age ;but where I am at now just exchanging opinions has lost all charm for me.
I now consider them only a useful form for exchange of pleasantries - and sometimes not even that.Though I agree one learns or gains something even from an exchange of opinions.
Thanks for such a detailed rely.
No I meant I am too old to enjoy listening to or exchanging opinions only-though even this I enjoyed at a it certain age.And yes I am almost 25 years -I think - older then you.
I agree with you 100 % about cherishing the opinions you have formed through your hard experience- and 101% about sharing but not forcing them on others.
But I enjoy exchanging and discussing my opinions with those who wish to do the same - only I prefer it to be in the form of dialogue rather then a debate; because personally I tend to look on a debate as something in which one is fixed to his side of the motion(opinion) and a ’civilized dialogue’ as something in which one is open to the out come - even to the extant that the other person may be right.
”they are simply memorized words that have been saved to spew forward..I find that type of action very common in various U.S. news blogs concerning my country and my people...”.So true ,and this is an arrogance which the US has spread to every place and people it’s culture or media has influenced....
And this really is what I term being opinionated;being so sure that you are right you are just not willing to even entertain the logic of the other -nor willing to give reasons in support of your own.
”The thing about ”fighting” is not ”knowing how” to fight, but knowing when and why and with whom to fight”.
A great deal of wisdom here ,and perfectly put.
Global Opinions (33)
Islam has never been a religion, nor has it been an ideology of peace, love and cooperation among fellow human beings. The ideology is one of supremacy, hate, lying, cheating, misleading, violence, maiming, murder and the false prophet's favorite, the child molestation of underage females to further his desire for numerous wives and property to control, abuse and humiliate.
Today's believers in Islam are the victims of the greatest fraud perpetrated on humanity since the fraud and deceit perpetrated by Hitler against his own people and countrymen prior to and during world war II and the atrocities perpetrated.
So i feel a writer, one should say those things or in that manner which makes it relevant. By this i don’t mean an that it is a plagrized post.
As a concerned citizen and human being u r right in rising it, but wrong by not adding anything new.
Same type of comments will continue.. Muslim-bashing or Muslin-supporting. ..
Although I would not go as far as to endorse what I see as being your overly provocative remarks, I DO agree with some of the questions it raises.
I am particularly worried about the fact that the Muslim world seems to see no reason to re-evaluate its positions. No questions are asked, the West is wrong. That’s it.
This lack of self-analysis and historical perspective, coupled with a categorical refusal to consider the West as anything else as the ”Enemy”, is bad news for us all, and it’s VERY bad news for those moderate Muslims who would like to see Muslim positions adapt to a changing world.
I am worried that Muslim thought is being hijacked and manipulated for ”Anti-Something” reasons, and that CAN NOT BE RIGHT!
Thank you
There are very few Anti-Muslim articles on this site.
I hope that this site is not going to become a mouthpiece for propagandists. Because if it does, those propagandists shall have the pleasure of reading their articles amongst themselves and patting themselves on the back and saying how right they all are......and how wrong everyone else is.
Wonderful perspective in view.
ALL media is biased, all over the world.
Are you trying to tell us that Western media are biased and that Muslim media are NOT???!!!!!!!!!!
When I read what I read in certain areas of this site, I wonder where the hell people in other parts of the world get it all from........!!!
THE WEST, BIG BAD BOGEYMAN, AGAINST NICE-AND-GENTLE-INNOCENT-AND-OBJECTIVE MIDDLE-AND-FAR-EASTERN-OPINION????
Wow!!
Didn’t know it was so clear-cut.
Thanks for the enlightenment.
2)I never said that media at my end is not biased either, but do you honestly think that Islam The Religion encouraged child molestation, abuse and humiliation??? I will be very much waiting for your response to that !!! :S:S:S
Sure.
Marrying off girls of twelve years old as a Muslim tradition is called pedophilia where I come from.
Moreover, Veena put up a very good post on this, about a 13 year-old girl who was, exceptionally, allowed to get a ”divorce”.
Religiously Legalised Pedophilia.
Disgusting.
Oh, and when I talked (wrote) about (sick sources) I also had some Arab and so-called Muslim ones in mind...Just like any other religion, Muslims don’t always represent the true Islam... That I thought is known for all...
There are no COUNTRIES, to my knowledge, which legalise pedophilia.
But there ARE countries which tolerate what you rightly call ”so-called-Muslim” practices.
This means that this is NOT a problem for countries, but for THE ISLAMIC FAITH, OR SOME INTERPRETATIONS OF IT!!!
As I asked in another comment here, when will the Muslim, or Islamic, world, start addressing issues instead of avoiding them by hiding behind semantic terms and definitions and words.
This is an issue that Islam should be dealing with, and it’s not the fault of ”countries”.
I’M waiting for am answer!!
And so are the children....
we can’t keep blaming people’s faith for individuals’ mistakes...It is just not fair... if Muslims are marrying 8 year-olds then this is ”pedophilia”, the same goes for anyone who belongs to any other religion, or non-religion...
I feel genuinely sorry for progressist and young, modern, Muslim/Islamic thought and people.
They have no guidance, no common ideals, no common philosophy, no common aims in this world.
But they DO have, unfortunately, more than their fair shair of manipulators and profiteers.
But that’s just human, after all.....
This happened with Christianity. Now it’s just a haphazard mix of differing opinions.
Islam is going the same way, I’m (very sadly) afraid) to say.
There is no ”Islam” any more.
(If the word is supposed to mean a UNIFYING set of beliefs.....)
Peace...
Thanks for commenting my comments.
Just a couple of clarifications. No, I am not biased. Bias, the meaning of which you don’t seem to fully undesrtand, is criticism founded on the deliberate abuse of fact, a deliberate attempt to mislead or manipulate. I think you meant to say that you don’t agree with my comments. That’s fair enough but I am only expressing opinions, not trying to denigrate anyone or anything with a wish to do harm. So, no, I am NOT biased. On the contrary my comments show my compassion for the Muslim world, but not for abuse committed in its name. I stand by that. If that is “ranting” and “prejudiced”, as you so inelegantly (and surprisingly, coming from you, oh well...) put it, I am guilty.
Re ‘Articles’, I didn’t say “Anti-Western”, I said “VIRULENT Anti-Western”. If you don’t know the difference, look up virulent. Of course people are entitled to their point of view.
‘Pedophilia’. Pleased to see you’re against it, Hassan, but this subject, like terrorism, violence, Jihad, and other subjects, are defined differently depending on which Muslim you are speaking too. Moreover, different opinions are both, somehow, justified by the Coran. A global “Islamic” standpoint does not exist.
I stand by my opinion that Islam seems to have (temporarily I hope) lost it’s bearings and does not want to confront things.
Your own contentions are a demonstration of this. You claim that “Islam is far superior”, your theories concerning the Jihad America created, (I suppose 9/11 was Bush too? Just like US college students.) allow you to conveniently understate the role played by Muslims, your general point of view, that the US and the West are more to blame than the others, etc, show that even you seem to have a useful scapegoat which allows you to avoid asking painful questions concerning the direction of Islam. And who suffers? Muslims, unfortunately.
Which was the central point of my comments, one which you choose to ignore. I sincerely think that Muslims are being done a disservice by other Muslims, and that’s my opinion. Period.
A BIG AMEN to this little gem of good-old-fashioned-common-sense.
Perfectly put.
Very interesting comment, thanks.
You are right. I speak categorically sometimes.
And it’s deliberate.
But you need to understand something else as well if you don’t mind my saying so.
The reason that I do that is that I have profound convictions, and I defend them. That does not mean that I do not dialogue however.
But.
Another reason I do that is that I also have the impression (and yes, it’s a generalisation, and we all have them) that writers from the Indian sub-continent sometimes confuse semantics and argument. I mean this in linguistic, and not cultural, terms. I have the feeling that things can get personal very quickly and insult takes the place of committed comment. I could quote so many examples, including one I answered only today in an answer to a comment you put up on one of my posts.
(I am curing myself of that virus, which I caught when I first got on this site. I shall stop rising to the bait, coz NO-ONE can be as BAD as me when he gats angry LOL!!)
And there is even a good example of it in the comment I am answering.
”(Michael’s”) ’apparent’ absolute hostility to even see Islamic view points”
Do you honestly believe that I harbour ”an absolute hostility to(wards) even (seeing) Islamic viewpoints”
That, Hassan, is arroneous and you know it.
If you mean I don’t always agree with you then you’re right.
But if you think I’m being systematically anti-muslim in my approach, that would seem to indicate that you do not like to be contradicted and get aggressive when it happens.
I answered you (rather aggressive) comments on this (your) article with what I think was a little politeness. I don’t want to use Anil to defend me, but he DID say that my comments were not offensive.
”(Michael) needs to break out of the mould the western press and upbringing has given him. Namely that the west has all the answers and for our own good we need to pick these up as soon as possible.The earlier the better.”
I think anyone can see that for what it is, Hassan. Condescending and pompous self-righteousness.
”(Michael) would be willing to learn.”
I don’t need a teacher Hassan. Who do you think you are?
Finally,
”Where have I said that you are biased?” you ask?
Sorry Hassan, but you should read your OWN comments. May I cut and stick this, written by YOU, higher up on this page?
Because you said it ON THIS POST!
”At least you can make an effort to discuss the issues in an unbiased manner instead of making general statements.”
You said you would apologise, because
(and I quote you again, you said ”If I have (said Michael was biased) please point it out and I will apologize”).
I would appreciate your apologies.
Thank you.
Hassan,
This is one of the truest statements I have ever come across on IB.
To make myself clear... This statement is a a goal we should all strive to not only remeber, but LEARN it, Live it, and LOVE it.
I did not ASK for an apology, as you say, you OFFERED it should it be necessary.
And if you think I ”stretched” (which means ”exaggerated” or ”distorted”) your words to make them mean that you said I was being biased, then your ”apology” is not one.
There is nothing more inelegant, uncultured, ungraceful and oafish than a grudging and reluctant apology.
It is also extremely condescending.
As for teaching and learning (@ Oscar too), I do not come to current affairs debates to be taught. I come to be informed.
Of course I accept teaching. Does someone honestly think otherwise? It’s an essential part of who I am. But not in these spheres.
There is an enormous difference between ”teaching” and ”being informed”.
So, I think Hassan, that someone should ”teach” or ”inform” you that a half-given apology is no apology at all.
I’ve answered what I care to answer, so have a good day.....
I don’t know about Islam, I’m trying to become informed: that’s why I only read the post and didn’t comment on it’s content or numerous comments.
The part of Hassan’s comment that I did quote caught my eye..and that is why I commented on that small part of his comment.
It has NOTHING to do with either of your or your comments.
Hi Oscar,
I too think that’s very true, (and very well expressed moreover)
I also know that that’s all you wanted to comment, because, knowing you, if you’d wanted to comment anything else you would have done so.
My comment wasn’t addressed to you, it was just for your information.
What I wanted to say is that if you play the piano, you can teach me it. If you can play chess you can teach me that too. If you a respected religious man, you can teach me what you know.
But no-one can ”teach” opinions, and that means I don’t consider that I have to ”lean”. I am not in college.
No-one can ”teach” Muslim viewpoints to me, or the Mumbai tragedy either. What people think of it all is opinion, not fact. They can explain it, say what the think they know and I will be pleased to take it onboard and accept what I want and leave out the rest.
The principle of ”Teaching and ”Learning”, is that those who teach do not expect eccessive contradiction. Normal.
Normal because those who ”learn” accept (most of) what they are taught. It’s what happens in school and university. That’s what they GO there for. To learn. To be taught.
I said I do not consider that I need to adopt a learning posture with those who discuss world events who think they can ”teach” me. No, I do not want a teacher. Not at all.
God knows there are enough ”lesson givers” (”teachers” right? that’s the definition - those who dispense lessons) out there as it is!!!!.
No-one can ”teach” anyone their points of view, opinions, interpretations.
I thought that would be obvious to anyone who knows the difference between teaching and giving opinion and exchanging information.
Is it so difficult to see the difference?
I’d be very surprised if you found that difficult my friend.
Seeya!!
You know me well.. I like the expression and that’s what I commented, plain and simple.. No pro, no con..No obscure random thoughts.
I understand very well the difference between learning and accepting one’s opinion... I can learn from a teacher, from books, from physical, proven statisticss.. I didn’t come to IB for that. I came to hear the ”two sides” that wrap around the statistics.. The human feeling, raw emotion, and ”personal truths” one can offer me.. Of course by hearing these ”truths”, my personal opion may be changed...But in the end, they are opionions....which as you said cannot be taught, only stated:
From there each has a choice to accept, deny, or a little of both.. That’s looking for ones ”personal truths.”
I am a teacher.. I teach facts..but as a good teach I also teach NOT to base ones opinion of textbook facts alone. I teach ”how to think, and how to search.”
I didn’t think we’d have a problem understanding one another, but just wanted to state my side just in case the slaying was to begin :)
No worries. In fact the Dragon Slayer is lying asleep in his lair right now, he has never been to this page, not once, and nothing was further from his mind, (if I may speak for him........)
Hey, I talked about learning etc with a teacher friend earlier. He sent me this.
I found it VERY interesting, and I’m sure Hassan will appreciate it too.....
”The opposite of a correct statement is a false statement. But the opposite of a profound truth may well be another profound truth”
Cool stuff.......
Our truths run back to our personal searching, what we choose to seek,How far and deep we choose to indelve ourselves into it, and how we percieve what we find.
This world isn’t about right or wrong or black or white..If it were, life would be easy and harmonious.. We live according to each’s perception..Those are our truths..
We can both agree what we are seeing is a color, but while you may see green, I may see blue, or red.. Who’s wrong?
I should know, I just happen to be blue/ green colourblind for borderline colours!!!!! LOL
Hassan, I cannot explain that if you cannot see it for yourself.
I am not a teacher, and I do not want to be one in this context.
But all of that is of no importance, for we shall talk of other things...in other contexts.
I wish you an excellent evening....
I agree with everything you have summed up for me, but may I add: Opinions are very neccessary...I personally, have not commented on the Islamic aspect of this post, because of my ignorance concerning the subject...but I WANT to learn, I want to form my own personal truth about Islam, therefore I must be made available these opinions which are stated..They are MOST important in my search for knowledge and truths...
Opinionated dialogue and open and receptive dialogues, in my belief, not only CAN, but MUST, walk hand in hand.
You’re giving me too much credit. I prefer to think I have become a bit more ”seasoned” with age. I was raised by a politician father, I can b.s. debate my way around with the best of them...but why?
I have learned to take pride in my ”personal truths”.. I didn’t come by them easy. I searched, did my homework, and searched some more before coming to my opinion.
When you work for something, you feel for it, believe, and take pride in those opinions. They are MINE..I am willing to share them: but I have no reason to force them upon anybody. The worse type of blindless in this world is the type when one chooses NOT to see. I can NOT change or save the world: but I WILL lend my hand and imparcial ear to anyone who needs or requests it.
I personally, don’t mind heated debates: I DO MIND heated dialogues which have NO TRUTHS, no passion, no personal reflection or solutions..Those are not debates nor dialogues..they are simply memorized words that have been saved to spew forward..I find that type of action very common in various U.S. news blogs concerning my country and my people...
Do I get angry..of course, but I will not lower myself to a duel with a man who’s only weapon is ignorance and or stupidity.
I’ve had my share of fighting.. physically and verbally, I am not sure of your age, but you make reference to the fact that maybe you just haven’t gotten ”there” yet..
The thing about ”fighting” is not ”knowing how” to fight, but knowing when and why and with whom to fight.
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